Psychic scythe [build]

[Vana]

oh, ITT we're serious. Well then..

A scythe with melee buffs (carried by any prof) gives you a ****ton of damage, that's no secret. But I think we'd all like a demonstration of you actually managing to put that to use and clearing stuff faster than any of us can do, running a caster bar.

Claims like; "this is the best thing you can run on a mesmer", "this is the fastest way to clear zones with a mesmer", and "entire mobs die in seconds" are complete and utter nonsense if you don't intend on backing them up.

Considering how much you seem to enjoy talking about practical implementation I'm sure you wouldn't mind recording some stuff for us.

[The Josip]

Originally Posted by Vana

Considering how much you seem to enjoy talking about practical implementation I'm sure you wouldn't mind recording some stuff for us.

I think you mistook me for someone else. :) I'm no missionary. And I'm certainly not a member of one of those religions where you don't have to do anything to be "saved", except enlisting.

Look, if you think you have a better build, just use your own build. I have shared this build for those who want to be more effective as mesmer and to play a mesmer in radically different way. That comes with minimum effort of course - actually using this build in practice. If someone is so lazy or sceptical that instead of trying this build wants me to hop around, then by all means remain lazy, sceptical and ignorant.

Claims like; "this is the best thing you can run on a mesmer", "this is the fastest way to clear zones with a mesmer", and "entire mobs die in seconds" are complete and utter nonsense if you don't intend on backing them up.

You just defined nonsense as everything that wasn't proven to you and that you have not understood personally.

Sorry. Reality and truth exist or not. Your inability to understand does not make something "nonsense". Your inability to see something does not make it "nonsense" either. If I told you that Eiffel tower exists, you would say it's nonsense unless I buy you a plane ticket and bring you there. I would say THAT is nonsense, and if you want you can buy ticket yourself or remain lazy, sceptical and ignorant. To each his own.

[djacob]

Josip, you can say that this is a fun build for a mesmer to try out but to say that it is the best for a mesmer is laughable. Just as saying that a ranger should take an mm build because it is so much better than mediocre ranger skills (instead of saying try out a spirit spammer because it costs less energy for a ranger). You may not like mesmer skills but that does not mean there aren't good ones out there and some, if used well, can be very great (wastrel's worry for instance, place it on 3-4 enemies in a row that are knocked down and you've got some nasty spike damage).

But yeah, have fun trying to convince people that this build, which has absolutely positively no synergy with a mesmer is good. I'm not saying you couldn't stay alive in most areas of the game with it, I've stayed alive with a dervish that had about 200 health and no defensive skills at all before and the only thing I had to do was team with a monk hero. Why? Cause I felt like it. I did learn something from the experience, monk heroes are much more likely to cast prot spirit on you if your max health is low.

Basically, the issue with this build is that not only can melee chars do better with the dervish skills + 2 of their own, but every class with the possibility of a monk could do the job better. Not only that but a mesmer standing in the back ranks can do a better job with just mesmer skills, or with any other classes skills that are long range.

Mesmers are squishy, it doesn't matter if you use skills to knock down enemies and conviction... don't even get me started on illusion of weakness. Faithful intervention is better in every way and I'd even call that underpowered. Anyone can take conviction, that doesn't change the fact you're still squishier than any other class with conviction on. As for psychic instability, yes it is a nice mesmer skill and gets some play on my mesmer heroes, what's your point? It's not pbaoe so you don't need to use it on a melee char for it to work well.

If it was pbaoe, I would kind of understand where you were coming from but as it is, that build can only be described as: "fun, works in easy areas, but not recommended for those who want to optimize their builds".

End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

[RDarken]

Geez, why is everyone hating on him for coming up with a new build? Maybe it IS the best Mesmer build for PvE - has anyone tried it?

Instead of just tearing him down and saying "There's no reason to run this as a Mesmer!" just ask questions. "Why not use a Dervish primary and substitute X for Y?"

My take:
It HAS to be run as a Mesmer because he's using Psychic Instability - that skill just won't work on any other Profession.
With Conviction up, he's demonstrated how this build can have more armor than a Warrior's base (80), plus a 50% chance to block. Plus, if you're keeping up on your Enchantments, you're looking at more base armor from Prodigy's Insignias.
Am I right?

Anyway, I'd like to see this in action. I honestly don't think I could pull it off, especially because I don't know anything about playing a Dervish. I might give it a shot, but I'd really just like to see how it performs in HM.

[upier]

If you want to optimize your team build, you do not run a mesmer.
There just are better support classes in this game.

Which means that when we are dealing with a mesmer, we are dealing with inherently sub-par options. And that means that the argument that someone else does something that is useful better, can not really be applied here.
Because you ALWAYS have someone else doing useful things better.


So instead you want to be asking yourself, how does this compare to other mesmer options. And here is the thing - mesmer options are quite crappy. Which means that the bar of what is acceptable is set so low that a crappy physical build is able to not only compete with these options, but can also rate quite highly.
Melee physical damage is just so overpowered that it makes up for (or at least slightly negates) the crap that the mesmer brings to the table.


On-topic regarding hands-on experience:
This build was taken to Slavers NM - Randy and Thommy part.
The whole place blew up.

[RDarken]

Originally Posted by upier

On-topic regarding hands-on experience:
This build was taken to Slavers NM - Randy and Thommy part.
The whole place blew up.

So it works well, then? That actually makes me happy :)

And regarding the first part of your post... *GASP*!

Mesmers are NOT subpar! That's what I meant in the other thread: For the longest time people just didn't think we were capable of anything if it wasn't PvP. I can almost understand that confusion prior to the skill buff. Almost.
But now? Run with a Panic Mesmer in HM and without one. I can almost guarantee you'll notice a difference (depending on the area). I mean, the last WiK quest (BLA) is practically designed to have a Panic Mesmer running it.
If you don't need the interrupts of Panic, swap for an SS or RoJ build - we can do both better than Necro or Monk, respectively.

[Rhokk of Drogbar]

1)That depends on who "this guy" is:

If you're referring to me, Discordway is one of if not THE best player/hero setup for PvE. (Mesmers are included in this category)

If you're not, I have no idea.

2)Because of Shadow Form and Assassin's Promise.

[upier]

Originally Posted by RDarken

Mesmers are NOT subpar! That's what I meant in the other thread: For the longest time people just didn't think we were capable of anything if it wasn't PvP. I can almost understand that confusion prior to the skill buff. Almost.
But now? Run with a Panic Mesmer in HM and without one. I can almost guarantee you'll notice a difference (depending on the area). I mean, the last WiK quest (BLA) is practically designed to have a Panic Mesmer running it.
If you don't need the interrupts of Panic, swap for an SS or RoJ build - we can do both better than Necro or Monk, respectively.

Buffed-up physical.
ER protter.
Imba.
Spirit spammer - offensive or defensive.
Curser / Orders spammer.
MM.
SoH cleaner.

So, for the mesmer to compete - the guy needs to do his own thing on the level of these guys OR, preferably, better.
Panic is nowhere near it.

[The Josip]

Originally Posted by djacob

You may not like mesmer skills but that does not mean there aren't good ones out there and some, if used well, can be very great (wastrel's worry for instance, place it on 3-4 enemies in a row that are knocked down and you've got some nasty spike damage)

Ok, so why if there are good ones out there, no one suggests anything but mediocre skills?

Wastrel's Worry is mediocre skill. You need someone knocked down, and then them being adjacent, and even then you can just hit with the scythe. When not knocked down, ww is basically not for use. Spamming ww on multiple foes also takes a lot of energy.

Not only that but a mesmer standing in the back ranks can do a better job with just mesmer skills

Mesmer skills are mediocre, and I'm already using PI.

don't even get me started on illusion of weakness. Faithful intervention is better in every way

Not at all. Mainly for the same reason that Watchful is so much better than Faithful - IoW triggers at 25% health and Faithful at 50%. That's a huge difference.

As for psychic instability, yes it is a nice mesmer skill and gets some play on my mesmer heroes, what's your point? It's not pbaoe so you don't need to use it on a melee char for it to work well.

Heroes don't use PI on recharge. Also, you must not have other interrupts in your team besides PI or they will cast it even rarer. When they cast it, they most likely won't interrupt spells that matter or foes that matter. Dual PI also slows killing speed while it does not provide "defense" for the team. This is because of how random PI will be when they use it - and team health can sometimes be at maximum because of PI (not good, because it's not optimal) and sometimes team will be dead because PI won't stop something critical, unlike heals and prots that usually target team members who need them, when they need them. Which increases the value of hybrid heroes.

PI on a melee mesmer surprisingly works better than on a caster (unless as a caster you want to arcane echo it of course, but that's another matter). The reason for this is that you're charging in first, and can often knock down entire group before it disperses on attack. You can technically rush in with caster as well but mesmer is not nuker, so once you PI you can... WW, if they are nicely adjacent. That's it. Melee can do much more. Not only that, but you're already locked onto a dangerous target, while that caster mesmer will need to TAB all the time to cast reactive hex x on target y, to cast reactive hex z on target yy and so on. As melee, you can autoattack and TAB fast - you're not losing any damage in tabing process. As a caster, if you're not casting something all the time, you're losing damage. Melee also uses it as a snare, so it fits in (of course, caster doesn't need a snare).

that build can only be described as: "fun, works in easy areas, but not recommended for those who want to optimize their builds".

The build is fully optimized, and absolutely beats in efficiency mediocre mesmer builds that mediocre delusional mesmers run.

Originally Posted by Dracanas

It's mostly due to him being known on the guru forums for not accepting, or at least very rarely, when he's wrong and instead believing he is the only one who's right. Or at least, that's how he comes off.

You must have mistaken me for someone else. Every time I'm wrong I accept it instantly without any drama, I shrug and move on without anyone noticing anything.
But when people want me to accept theorycrafting BS, like "caster and physical damage are balanced" and "this Me/D build is horrible and mesmer builds are better" and "mesmer has been the best last several years, just need to be used right" - then I am not going to accept I am wrong because I am not. I just can't compete with theorycrafting nor am willing to.

Originally Posted by Rhokk of Drogbar

Or you can just use Discordway and not have to worry about any of this.

I mostly ran AP EVAS spam and Discordway on my mesmer, pre-buff. That was the most powerful build I knew. But after buff I tried this, and in most areas I'd say it beats my EVAS spam and Discordway. Especially in crowded areas. In terms of speed of course. In few places melee class is not ideal so Discordway might still be better. I rank Discordway as 2nd best team build you can use as a mesmer in PvE, but it's going to be tough in some areas.

Originally Posted by Vana

I am yet again convinced that you are indeed a troll.

Geez you desperate want a missionary. Look, I don't deal with beliefs and convictions. Go to church.

[Vana]

I don't follow your logic.


If it makes you feel any better, though, I'm not actually against your build. I'm perfectly aware of how much damage you get from a buffed scythe, and I've been running similar builds on several of my casters from time to time.

But with that attitude, there's no way in hell you could be interested in anything but starting a fight.